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The Role of Telcos in the Metaverse

Michaël Trabbia, Chief Technology and Innovation Officer of the Orange Group, joins Marc Petit (Epic Games) to discuss telecommunications in the metaverse. Topics include 5G, the evolution of infrastructure, open standards, and more.

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Michaël Trabbia, Chief Technology and Innovation Officer, the Orange Group
Michaël Trabbia
Chief Technology and Innovation Officer, the Orange Group

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Announcer:

Today on Building the Open Metaverse.

Michaël Trabbia:

I do believe that the connectivity that we have today, both fiber and 5G, are very well-suited for Metaverse and immersive experiences. Obviously, we will need also other kind of technologies. Probably maybe we'll talk about edge computing and things like that.

Announcer:

Welcome to Building the Open Metaverse where technology experts discuss how the community is building the open Metaverse together, hosted by Patrick Cozzi from Cesium and Marc Petit from Epic Games.

Marc Petit:

Hello, everybody. And welcome to our showing, Building the Open Metaverse, the podcast where technologists share insight on how the community is building the open metaverse together. Hello. My name is Marc Petit from Epic Games. And my cohost, Patrick Cozzi from Cesium cannot make it today. So he will be twith us only in spirit. And I've been looking forward to this episode, talking about telcos. Our guest today is live from Paris. He's the Chief Technology and Innovation officer at Orange. Please welcome Michaël Trabbia. Michaël, we say, right?

Michaël Trabbia:

Yes. Michaël, in French. So hello, Marc. And hello to everybody.

Marc Petit:

Thanks. Thanks for being with us. So Michael, you've held a number of senior positions and roles in the French administration linked to technologies and now you are the CTIO of Orange, but please tell us in your own words, your past to the Metaverse.

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, I like to see myself as a telco guy exploring how to change people life for the better. And so obviously when thinking about the metaverse and before that we were talking about virtual reality, virtual worlds, virtual experiences, augmented reality, metaverse. I like this definition of it being interconnected virtual experiences. And for me, there are two elements. First is the virtual experiences and we definitely see a lot of potential there. And we are, for instance, produced a full experience on Notre Dame, to visit Notre Dame which is one of the greatest cathedrals in Paris, very known and very well known, and unfortunately had burnt a few years ago. And we have been able to rebuild everything in virtual reality to revisit it, to revisit the history of Notre Dame. And I think it's a great example of how virtual reality can help us in many areas, not only in gaming, but also in culture, in education. And that's for me really exciting and really create experiences that we can provide to our users.

Marc Petit:

Great. So I'm glad you're a telco guy, because that's a topic that's very interesting to us, because telcos have historically played huge roles in making technology widely available and affordable to everyone and to every home. And we've seen that throughout the whole internet 2.0 cycle. So what role do you anticipate that telcos will play in the metaverse?

Michaël Trabbia:

I always like to look back before looking forward. And it's great to see how things have been changing in the past 30 years. When you think a little bit about that, 30 years ago, it was the very beginning of the web, the worldwide web, the internet. It was the launch of GSM on the mobile side. And it's amazing how our lives has been changing thanks to those technology. And I like to see the telecom as the trusted entry point to the digital world. I think that we are that. We provide obviously the connectivity, which is core, to get access to all those great experiences and services that people like you are building all over the world. And I guess that the telco, obviously beyond being this entry point on the connectivity, they also are the trusted guys for our customers, because this is also a world that can be a little bit scary for some people, that are not used to it, that are not necessarily into technology. And they need people to accompany them into those new services, those new abilities, opportunities.

Michaël Trabbia:

And this is important for us to play this role, to be there for them, to be there close to them. We have shops around the corner in the countries we operate in and we distribute not only connectivity but also devices, so today mainly smartphones, tomorrow, more and more maybe other kind of devices, virtual reality, augmented reality glasses, whatever devices will come through and also distribute services. And for instance, today we do that on TV. We offer a TV package to our customers. And maybe tomorrow we will offer a metaverse package to our customers.

Marc Petit:

Nice. And it's good to see that. We tend to forget, I mean, that deep engagement you have all over the country with stores and reaching out to every single family. At Vivatech when I was walking around, I was surprised to see a huge Orange booth with only with startups, I think. So what kind of support are you providing to your ecosystem? What kind of role do you think you want to play in that emerging market?

Michaël Trabbia:

Yeah. We actively engage with the ecosystem and with startups in particular. We do it in three different areas. The first one is about funding, and we have a big fund, which is a big corporate fund, which is Orange Ventures, which has 350 million Euros. And by the way, we invest also in other funds. For instance, we are investor in VR fund, which is a famous fund on VR and metaverse companies. So funding is important for us, but we are also very present in the technology. Technology is our core value, is our core asset.

Michaël Trabbia:

And we engage with startups in bringing technology to them, especially connectivity. For instance, we have launched already 13 Orange 5G labs, which welcome startups to test and integrate 5G into their own services. And that's a wonderful way to integrate those startups, add them, build their own services. And we already have had more than 100 startups that have integrated 5G thanks to us. So technology is the second one.

Michaël Trabbia:

And the third one, not the least, is about business because we believe that what's important for the startups is to do business. Funding, there is funding more and more, even if maybe this year is a little bit more challenging, to be honest. But I would say that the main focus for many startups, all the startups I'm speaking with, is about developing their business. And that's what we do with our Orange Fab activity, which is bridging the startup with one of our business units. We have 250 million customers around the world. So it's a huge opportunity for them to access users and customers all around the world.

Marc Petit:

That's fantastic. Thank you. So you mentioned 5G. So let's get a little bit more technical. Can you summarize for us, I think it's quite obvious, but I think it's good to speak to it, what 5G and low latency networks will enable for the metaverse?

Michaël Trabbia:

Yes. And so actually before talking about 5G, it's good to mention that fiber and Wi-Fi is the primary access to very high broadband and to metaverse experiences. And 5G somehow is like your fiber access in your pocket. And that's the way we should look at it because thanks to 5G, you will be able to have a very high bandwidth similar to fiber. Actually, you can reach several 100s megabit per second and even in some configuration up to one gig, which is really more than enough for immersive experiences.

Michaël Trabbia:

But this is also about latency. Thanks to 5G, we will be able to bring back latency, bring down latency down to 10 milliseconds, and it's four times less than what we have with 4G. So this is about instant 1080 and this is a real-time and this is also about quality of service, guaranteed quality of service with 5G and with 5G SA, standalone, as you mentioned, Marc. We are able to guarantee quality of service for certain service. We are going to slice the network in order to make sure that whatever happen around you, for some services, we are able to keep the level of service all along the activity that you need.

Marc Petit:

We've heard some people have been vocal that 5G is not going to be enough probably some use cases like streaming VR. What's your opinion? I mean, do we need 6G? We already heard about 6G and networks of networks and all of that promise. Or other technologies? Or can we build it up on 5G?

Michaël Trabbia:

I do believe that the connectivity that we have today, both fiber and 5G, are very well-suited for metaverse and immersive experiences. Obviously, we will need also other kind of technologies. Probably maybe we'll talk about edge computing and things like that. But the bandwidth is very good. The latency is very good. And the quality of service, I think, is the most important. I mean, you don't want to be disturbed during your work, if it's about work, during your experience or gaming, if you are playing, and you don't want to be killed or whatever. So 5G, we don't need to wait for further technology and further connectivity. Obviously, we will always continue to improve and we will get better technologies with 6G and so on, but already today, the networks are ready for the metaverse.

Marc Petit:

Okay. Just curious from an ecosystem and value chain perspective, when you look at the mobile internet, telcos have spent big dollars to lay down the infrastructure, and it seems that it has benefited mostly some of the bigger tech giants.

Marc Petit:

Do you see the metaverse as platform transition as an opportunity to rebalance the ecosystem, if you think if it's unbalanced, I assume so? It looks like 5G is a very, very capital-intensive deployment. You have anything specific in mind to capture slices of revenue? Or are you happy with the current state of affairs?

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, it's a great question, Marc. Indeed we have invested literally billions of euros in the ground to roll out our networks, fiber 5G networks, and we will continue to do it. And we invest every year, because beyond 5G, you need more and more capacity every year. The traffic on our networks grows by around 30% every year, so can you imagine that? And you can imagine the level of investment we need to make every year. Yes, depending on the countries and the competition can be very high. It's not always easy to have the right return and the fair return on investment on those networks. And we definitely would like to have a fair share of the value.

Michaël Trabbia:

And we believe that 5G can be an opportunity to monetize the quality of service. Today we don't do that. With 4G, 3G, it's one-size-fits-all connectivity. With 5G we will be able to slice this connectivity and maybe you guys or other will say, I want to offer a premium service for some of my customers that are willing to pay for this great experience. And you will ask us to put those slices for the customers that you will have convinced to subscribe to this kind of premium services.

Michaël Trabbia:

I think we need to demonstrate that the overall business model of internet today and tomorrow will not only be about selling the data of the customer and the users and that there is value in what we provide, what you provide. And this value should also be monetized. And I do believe that more and more subscription based model will be able to grow.

Marc Petit:

What about net neutrality then? What's your take on sharing the burden of network investment more proportionally and balancing the ecosystem?

Michaël Trabbia:

Yes, it's topic that I always hear about, net neutrality. And I think it's a great concept, which basically for me, net neutrality should mean not to deteriorate the quality of service for some services or some provider. And this is perfectly okay for us. But at the same time, when you bring an, I would say, an improved experience, a guaranteed quality of service, this we should be able to monetize. I would say this is really the purpose of 5G, to bring this customized quality of service, service based depending on what the customer is able to pay.

Michaël Trabbia:

Obviously when you mention that it means that you will not, and we will not discriminate. For instance, if you ask us for one slice and another competitor of fuel is asking for the same, we will provide the same thing for both of them. But still it is important to monetize this quality of service.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Let's switch gears a little bit, look at the infrastructure, the promise of a connected, persistent virtual world. Right now as a developer, when you look at the stack that's available to us, to them, you got compute in the cloud with the big scalers, now Telco provides edge computing. We have mobile tablets or laptop, and we start to tether more devices to those variables, watches and eventually glasses.

Marc Petit:

What's the key to guaranteeing ... It's a lot of players that need to talk to each other, and a successful metaverse experience arguably will have to leverage all the stages of that cascade. What's the way we guarantee performance? And how do we distribute the graphics? Because ultimately the big computational load is going to be a lot about the graphics and how we do graphics at the four stages at the same time. What is your perspective on that?

Michaël Trabbia:

Yeah, that's a great question. When you look at the past, there has been different ways moving, either more centrally, either or more locally, where you put the compute that is needed. And we have gone quite locally recently with the smartphone capability, compute power, which is grew unimaginable a few years ago. That's great, how many things that our smartphone can do. I do believe that with the metaverse and the immersive experiences, we will need to put back some of the compute and the rendering competition, either in the cloud or in the edge.

Michaël Trabbia:

And that's also we are also in a good position to do it because now we have great networks with fiber, with 5G, that allows to transmit all the data that you need, all the information that you need for this great 3D, real-time rendering. This will be also needed because you will need autonomy of the devices because of efficiency concern that we will have, and also environmental concern by the way, that exists. My 2 cents would be we will need to build more edge capabilities for the metaverse.

Marc Petit:

So it's the right thing to think that the edge becomes the core processor or the device which allows us to have more lighter weight devices, or?

Michaël Trabbia:

Exactly. And we will need, by the way, new computers, new chipsets in order to do this very efficiently, very smoothly. Because when you think about massive use of those experiences, we cannot afford to have to multiply by 10, by 50, by 100, the number of data center, the number of servers that we will use. We will need to be far more efficient because there will be no metaverse if it is not a sustainable metaverse.

Michaël Trabbia:

This is also great opportunity to invest in cutting edge technologies in chipsets, in cloud edge computing capabilities. And I see many companies that are really investing a lot in those technologies, which will probably bring us completely new perspective and way forward, not only in metaverse, but maybe also beyond this use case.

Marc Petit:

Okay. I always talk about, when we talk about the metaverse, I always imagine a world where every glass panels in our lives can become a screen, like the windows in our houses, the windshields in our cars. Do you think 5G and edge computing is how we stream to those device so that we have relatively passive clients, but that can still act as participant in the metaverse?

Michaël Trabbia:

Yes, many of them will leverage wifi and fiber. Roughly when you look at the data traffic that we have on fixed network and mobile network, it's 10 time more on fixed network than on mobile networks. And I would see no major reason why this would be different in the metaverse. Most of the traffic will go through fixed network, but still it's a huge amount of additional traffic that we will need to convey. And our networks are ready for that. Obviously we will need more and more capacity as the, I would say, the use continues to increase, but we are already used to that, as I mentioned, 30% increase every year of data traffic. It means that every six years or so, we have 10 times more traffic in our networks.

Marc Petit:

Yeah, the math is brutal. I was personally disappointed with cloud GPUs. When I released a feature in Unreal Engine in 2017, even inside of Epic, people called me lunatic, saying the cloud will never work. And I have to admit that it's working, but it's not as pervasive as I would've expected. It's a bit slow to take off. Why do you think it's been slow? Does the Telcos entering the cloud computing market at the edge would potentially can change that dynamics? What would you think for cloud streaming of 3D content to become mainstream?

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, I guess it's all about market adoption and business expectation at the end of the day. Where there is value, where there is money, where you have customers ready to pay, to pay you and then you will pay the Telco, the cloud provider, or whoever player to deal with the quality of service, then the business grows. And it's fair to say that beyond the gaming industry today, there is still limited interests, a maturity for edge computing capabilities for instance. I do believe it will come, but this is all about markets first, customer first, and then don't worry, we will be there. The technology is there. It will continue to improve. We are working together with hyperscales also on that topic, to bring edge capability and software into our premises, our networks. There is no intention to block anything there, but we need to find customers that are ready and willing to invest in this technology.

Marc Petit:

Thank you. Yeah, that makes sense. Is the price of GPU an issue around the variability of the model?

 

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, obviously pricing is always important, but it's first about having services where people can see and feel the difference, and they're ready to pay for the difference of quality of service. And if you have that, and if you manage to build this business, then we can negotiate and discuss about the pricing on GPU and how to make it down with scale and things like that. The ecosystem has been always able to drive price down with scale. So I'm not worried about that.

Marc Petit:

And so you mentioned the hyperscaler, the cloud computing companies, are you, are the Telcos, because they've started running a lot of compute at the edge, are you on a computing trajectory with the cloud providers?

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, I would say today we are not. We are... I think we know what our strengths are. We invest in networks. We are great in connectivity. We bring great customer service. The customer relationship is very important for us. We have distribution, we have shops, we have customer services. And we know, I would say, what is not our business. We are not going to build the metaverse platform. We are not going to build the cloud services. So definitely we want to partner with the different players. And I think that digital is all about partnering.

Michaël Trabbia:

And because it's an end-to-end experience. Nobody can, if you take one company along, there is nothing, no service for the customer. Everyone needs each other. What is true is that with the technology moving forward, you can have people and players that are willing to expand in the value chain. And this can create sometimes some friction, but I'm convinced that what we bring is essential and is something that is very different from what the hyperscalers are bringing. We bring connectivity, we bring customer proximity. And I do believe that we have a good complementary as long as we understand and respect each others' roles and added value for the customers.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. And hopefully people win on merit. I'm an optimist still. So let's talk about open standards a little bit, which is one of our favorite topics here. So the current version of the Internet's been optimized for the delivery of video streams and Epic has played a huge role there. So how much, so what do we need to do to support persistence interactive city world? What delivery do we need? New standards, new format. How do we go about that?

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, you may not know that, but actually Orange is, has been quite advanced in research and IP in the image, in the video for instance, and we are great experts, worldwide experts there, but actually I don't have the answer to your question. We will, I think that this is still early time to be able to say what will be the format and standard, that will be the winning ones. Today, what we see is different experiences. We have no metaverse today. We have separate and not interoperable virtual experiences. Some of them are really great. And breathtaking in gaming, in training, in sports. I think sports is also a very good example of how much value we can bring thanks to those technologies.

Michaël Trabbia:

But those experiences are not yet interoperable, not yet working with each other. And I think we are still in the phase where we need to experiment tests. And at the end of the day, we will need to standardize. You mentioned open source, open source is critical to scale because if we want people to adopt massively technology, it needs to be open source, or else we would simply not be able to get these massive interoperable experiences.

Marc Petit:

Yeah, you're right. The question was very vague. I think there is underlying topic, which is about web browsers and the rise of 3D on the web. And you know, how right now it seems to be happening, but it, we still live in a relatively fragmented world of browsing. And how much of that is on purpose? We don't know, if I can volunteer an opinion, because it looks like people favor apps over the open web many, many times over. So we see the emergence of interesting standards around like glTF and WebGPU , WebAssembly, I mean, that could become an interesting framework to grow and open new standards. And you have a point of view on the world of browsing right now and how we move forward with that.

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, the only point of view that I can share is that standard is the core value of the Telco. Clearly for us, when we established GSM, it was all about getting a standard that is interoperable worldwide. And now we are here with 5G, the same technology everybody can use. You can use your smartphone in Asia, in the US, wherever you are in Europe, in Africa, it's the same technology, the same standard. It brings great benefit in the device making, because there is such a huge market. Then you can have so, so many benefits. So on the web versus app, I would say that if metaverse is the future of internet, then obviously we will need to bring 3D standards and rendering standards into the browsers, into the apps. And that should be more or less the same for everybody.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. I think the Telcos have done a fantastic job and maybe because the regulator told you to do so on interoperability and open standards, I think, can you explain to us very quickly? What Open RAN is? I think it's a kind of a very interesting initiative to tackle ecosystem level problems and bring a common solution that is fair.

Michaël Trabbia:

Indeed, Marc. As I mentioned, the Telco, the mobile story has started 30 years ago with GSM. And at that time it was still different technology, different ways of doing quite vertical legacy integrated equipment. And we are moving now to a much more virtualized, cloudified, software-based network. And this is a huge transformation for us that will bring speed, agility, and improve the quality of service for our customers. Basically, I would say that this is a little bit like moving towards the agile IT world and putting this agile IT way of doing in the Telco. And we are, we have started to do this in our core network, our big platforms where all the intelligence of the network is, and we are going to push that towards the run, the access network, the radio access network to have a full capability end-to-end in our network. And this agility is key. And we will need to cloudify our network, automate, we will do a lot of automation in order to make sure that the network adapts itself to the reality of the traffic in real time.

Marc Petit:

And I think you guys are using a lot of AI for that, right?

Michaël Trabbia:

Absolutely. A lot of AI. And basically today we have people behind their screen supervising the network and taking actions based on alarms that they receive. For instance, if you have one site down or what, one link that is down tomorrow, those people, they will not be there anymore. And they will be replaced by algorithms. And we will have people on that will program the algorithms, and that will program AI to manage the network in real time.

Marc Petit:

Yeah, that's fantastic. A little bit scary, but fantastic.

Marc Petit:

So, the industry, Patrick and I are personally very close to an initiative called The Metaverse Standards Forum, which we launched a few weeks ago, already have 800 companies in it, no Telcos yet, and it's really an attempt to create a space for people to talk. The various standards defining organizations. We will have one if we win, if we have one metaverse, another constellation of metaverse, one interconnected, interoperable metaverse, I think. Utility and value is going to build on this interoperability. So as we are coming together to try to talk, what would be your word of wisdom, as you in the Telco industry are used to those big conversations where everybody has got to check their ego and their business interest at the door for the common good? So what's your advice?

Michaël Trabbia:

I would say make it business first before trying to get the biggest share of it. Because, clearly if the most important is to create the market, grow the market, and then if you have no market and you have a strong share of an existing market, then you have nothing. So it's definitely key to put this at the forefront. And, we as Telco, we know this and we know how to do that.

Michaël Trabbia:

We have been talking together for years. We know that we can compete in some areas, but when talking about technology, when talking about standards, we all work for the same interest with only one thing in mind. It's not about business. It's technical people willing to make it work.

Marc Petit:

Yeah, no, I agree. That's why, I mean, I use the term utility, because I don't want to use the term value creation, because it's a very tainted term. But I do believe that's what we need to be doing now, create the foundation of interoperable content so that we enable new businesses, and then it's early to standardize something that does not exist. But I do believe aligning the industry and having a shared foundation is critical.

Michaël Trabbia:

And show great content. I mean, you have great gaming experiences, but I think you need to show also content that are appealing to not only to the gamers, I would say, also demonstrate that you can bring value to the society. You can improve the education of kids. You can improve the training of the companies. You can improve the security with remote working and so on. I think this is really important to build a social metaverse that brings positive impact to the society.

Marc Petit:

I agree. So let's talk about data and trust for a minute, because if you want to create a positive impact to society, I think this is the first thing that springs to mind. So what is your role and opportunity in safety and data privacy as a Telecom?

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, we like to see ourselves as trusted partner, meaning that we don't sell our customers data, and we rather sell a service to our customers. Our customer are not the ones who want to push the advertisement. Our customers are the users. Privacy security, trust is for me, probably the biggest risk in the digital nowadays. If we are not overall able to manage that and make sure that our users trust the services we bring them, I think we will have a catastrophe.

Michaël Trabbia:

In the beginning, when the internet started, I mean, people didn't care that much about those topics and they were not very well aware of all this. What I see is that there are more and more concerned about privacy, about their data, and this is an opportunity for us with the metaverse, with new business models, with new experiences, to build it differently, and to make sure that at least there are services that are protecting the data of the customer with different business models that we need to put forward, and we are ready to support and to push and distribute those kind of services.

Marc Petit:

Which leads to another question. Maybe it's a big topic to ask at the end of a conversation. But the blockchain technology is all about supporting a trustless environment, a place where you don't need to trust anybody, because it's all based on crypto technology. So is the crypto an opportunity for Telecoms? I mean, is this something that you guys look at, "This is our future," or how does the companies like Orange look at crypto technologies?

Michaël Trabbia:

It's obviously the topic we look at, and we also discuss a lot with other Telecoms. We have regular meetings with the biggest European Telecom, for instance, and I can tell you, we have monthly meeting, and this is the topic that comes up every meeting.

Marc Petit:

I'm sure

Michaël Trabbia:

We definitely look at this. Now, I would say that for me, blockchain should not be an objective per se, but we should make sure that we leverage the technology where it is useful and where it is meaningful. Sometimes I have the feeling that people try to put blockchain everywhere because it is blockchain, and I think this is not right. We need to define where it is relevant, and it's not true that we will need blockchain everywhere to distribute everything. I think it is not serving the technology to think like that.

Marc Petit:

I agree. Have you found a good logical place where blockchain allows to build killer apps?

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, as you know, blockchain is, I would say everywhere in the tech environment and speeches, not that much in the real business. I mean, if you look beyond cryptocurrencies, you have not that much blockchain actually running. Our perspective is that for smart contracts, it can be interesting, but then once again, you need to make sure that you need this kind of decentralized zero trust technology. It's not always the case. Sometimes a centralized approach is very well suited, is already working and is doing a great job, and you don't need blockchain.

Michaël Trabbia:

So you need to really think benefits first and then also to make sure that the blockchain evolves towards more sustainable technology. The proof of work is, I think, really concerning because of its difficulty to scale. Definitely, I know there are a lot of work to move towards better and proof of stakes or other type of blockchain. I think this is absolutely vital for the technology to continue to scale in the future.

Marc Petit:

Well, thank you very much, Michael. We've covered a lot of topics. So is there any topic we should have covered and we have not today?

Michaël Trabbia:

Plenty, but I guess that's already a great summary for me. It's really about bringing value, and bringing value to the customer, answering our main concerns as a society. I think that we need to have this in our mind if we want to make successful services tomorrow.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. Final question, is there an individual, an organization, or an institution that you would like to give a shout out to today?

Michaël Trabbia:

To give a, sorry?

Marc Petit:

A shootout, a mention.

Michaël Trabbia:

Well, tough question. I would say that for me this is mainly about standardization. I think the standardization is definitely key. So it would be rather a global call out to you guys to agree on the standards that will be needed. So that's what I can say.

Marc Petit:

Well, thank you. Yeah, no, we're trying. Yeah. I think the good thing about, at least the CG part of the industry, just like the Telecom part, we are used to working together. We've built trust. We've been going to the same SIGGRAPH for the past 50 years and all worked with each other in some form of capacity. So I think the CG industry has a strong ability to work together, and that's what makes me very hopeful that we can agree on that foundation, that we can all build upon. Great, valuable experiences. So, Michaël Trabbia, thank you so much. You're the CTIO of Orange. Thank you for making time for us today and give you a perspective that we don't hear very often. Thanks again for being with us today.

Michaël Trabbia:

Thank you, Marc, and keep changing life for the better.

Marc Petit:

Yeah, we'll try, and thanks to our audiences. More and more people listen to the podcast, give us feedback. So hit us on social, either me Marc Petit, or Patrick Cozzi. Let us know what you think. Let us know what you want to hear about. Thank you everybody. Thank you, Michaël, again.